Theory on Dragonewt Weirdness (2023)

Wow, someone else writes diatribes as long as mine...

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Bah! Pure mammalian prejudice!Ask David Icke what our reptilian overlords think of such attitudes.Theory on Dragonewt Weirdness (1)

Ok, go into that crocodile nest to get some eggs while the mother watches. I'll happily sit by and mop up the remains... Not all reptilians are like sea turtles.

But then, dragonewts are not reptilian. They are warm-blooded. One might classify them as a variant branch of the dinosaurs, one that eschewed the feathers.

(Note that during the ages of the dinosaurs, lots of other big tetrapodes with more reptilian traits existed, too. Neither ichtyosaurs nor mosasaurs nor pterosaurs are any close relation to the ancestors of our birds. And there were monster-sized crocodilians, too.)

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Agreed, if we are talking about humans. Reptilian brains don't develop the same way. Reptiles lack a limbic system and a neocortex, hence they don't have the same emotional responses. Now as we know nothing about Dragonewt brains, other than the fact that a human can only mimica dragonewt brain after a split brain operation.

Forget about reptilians. The dragonewts are evolutionary as far from the rock lizards as are birds or mammals if you insist on putting them onto the same evolutionary tree as terrestrial organisms. A relationship that doesn't work for Glorantha, anyway, but I'll play along since I have used dragonewts in a RQ setting of mine which did obey evolution for the most part.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

That early life is a time of learning is not something I will disagree with, but the issue is what is learned.

And what is racial memory that slowly emerges through learned things proven wrong by this.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

I seem to recall reading that the Inhuman King actually laid the eggsin the early literature. More an inhuman queen. Needless to say that I prefer this idea of yours. It makes a lot more sense. I wonder if this connects with the Egglord and/or the Pseudocosmic Egg of Nysalor?

My first encounter with these critters was the Dragon Pass boardgame. I might confuse this with theGlorantha booklet of the RQ3 DeLuxe box, but I think itsaid they were the neotenic offspring of immature (True) dragons. RQ2 misleadingly talks about warm-blooded reptiles, but that was not in the original source.

I think that Lawrence Whitaker did have some short insider notes when he wrote the MRQ book on dragonewts. One of the better MRQ publications, and while some interpretations may have since been re-visited and some details never confirmed, I think that that presentation of the last-born and horny female dragon that left clutches of neotenic dragonewts all over the place may be Word from Greg, or possibly word from Stephen Martin who had fairly full access to Greg's Glorantha notes at the time.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

On the other hand, we have the whole issue of dragonewts who become dinosaurs. Do they mis-manifest at their eggs, and then wander off?

I suppose they hatch for (not so) good, destroying their egg in the process. Dragon Pass had something about some of them redeeming themselves spinning a cocoon like an egg, from which they emerge as Pteranodons, to an almost dragon-like existance.

No idea about the magisaurs, though, which start out effectively as defect scouts.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Dinosaurs are fully sexual and breed and lay eggs also, and thus are bypassing many stages of dragonewt development in that regard, and it isn't as if they lay emanation eggs. Not even magisaurs.

That's one of the draconic traits that they lost. Dinosaurs don't emanate anything (the Trachodon/giant magisaur regimental spirits in the boardgame are something different).

New OS:

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Hmm... I don't think this is a good analogy. Dragonewts aren't closet Mostali.

Mostali aren't computers or Pratchett-style golems, either. What I meant by this comparison is that the new incarnation has a difference in basic outlooks and thought processes. A lot of identity (and especially dragonewt social identity) is retained, but if the individual progressed as supposed, it works closer to the draconic Absolute.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

I see it more as a progression through different syllabuses of monastic training, with the emergent physical form being proof of completion.

In my model the physical form is an expression of the slowly forming mind, so we aren't that far apart in that aspect.

Comparison to human development of personality and mental capacities as age groups:

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Okay, that's a better analogy. I think the challenges of these stages are quite different for humans and dragonewts though. Humans pass through these phases in a few years, while dragonewts may well take centuries, not to mention mis-steps into wrong paths like becoming dinosaurs.

Oh, I agree. The analogy is far from 100%, it is just a hint at the mental and moral capacity of the developing mind.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

On the contrary, your statement was that the common Gloranthan conception is that dragonewts are eternally wise and noble creatures is decidedly false. Most people in Glorantha have probably never heard of Dragonewts, and their response will be "wtf is a dragonewt?" (or equivalent).

Better than two thirds of the Genertelans plus the Teleosans have heard about the dragonewts. The original Malkioni colonies may be the great exception, but they too were involved in the opposition to the Middle Sea Empire by the EWF. While the EWF wasn't dragonewts but began as humans imitating dragonewts, some memory of that plus the world-wide experience of dragons rising everywhere, even where you never expected any, to fly to Dragon Pass would be in the common lore. Pamaltelan's might wonder why all those ginormous beasts suddenly manifesting flew north without knowing anything about dragonewts. Vithelans might be less ignorant, but only slightly so.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

That makes total ignorance the "default setting" for most people and races, and I think, given their penchant for obscurantism, that probably suits the dragonewts quite well.Truth is never irrelevant, and ignorance is still context.

In Pelanda, far from any living dragonewt nest, where the last contact with that species was the Dragonkill war, there are nonetheless mentions of dragonewts in their myth how humans failed to participate in immortality.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

The chances of any invading human army committing such a perfect genocide are extremely unlikely. There would have been multiple pockets of survivors and refugees, and even cadres of EWF forces hiding out.

If one can believe the numbers, there was one invading soldier for each human inhabitant of Dragon Pass. Yes, a few humans found refuge as slaves of Isidilian, and Delecti's magic unmade an entire piece of the land, but apart from that, the human lands were scoured for good. The wilderness obviously a lot less, which explains how the Aramites (stalwart warriors for the EWF in the Machine War) held out.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

As proof, consider that Delecti's Ruin used to be the EWF capital as far as I remember,

First time I see this claim.

The EWF inherited the location of their council from the council of Orlanthland, the entity which started into the Second Age receiving tribute from occupied Dara Happa. It is quite possible that that council met at an itinerary of holy mountains around Dragon Pass, according to the Season. These holy men (the chief priests) would likely have been accomplished flyers.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

and he called in the waters to provide an obstacle for the TGH. There is also the Cannon Cult in Dwarf Run who survived the Dragonkill. I have little doubt the TGH wanted to commit total genocide, but I think the work was completed by the dragons.

Sure. When the dragons struck, all humans were targets. Those who were friendly had fled or perished otherwise, or were waiting for worse fates, like slavery.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

I don't think that the EWF survivors would have been so very hated by the other Orlanthi. Admittedly many would probably have had to accept thralldom due to their post Dragonkill refugee poverty, but I am pretty sure that other tribes would have heard of their tribulations and seen that as more than sufficient punishment. The fact that survivors made it to Shadow Plateau suggests that the nucleus of some clans may have maintained knowledge of draconic secrets other than how to kill them.

Sure. There will have been individuals from most clans in Nochet or in similar mundane places of Kethaela at any time, who may have had some half-correct family tradition about what was forgotten 78 years earlier. In comparison, that's the memory how the US got dragged into World War 2, from now. What do you know about the conditions at that time, about the political constellations and the rivalries? And that's without atotal manhunt which not even the Katharan crusade or the elimination of the Knights Templar achieved.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

I seem to recall that the Dragonewts do have some weird dragon crop that they grow.

No, that was the human (or rather yet human, though already quite draconic in look and habit - think Elderlings from Robin Hobb's Golden Fool / Living Ships series) population of Dragon Pass who now had this strange crop instead of the good old Ernaldan food. Which they returned to after 1042, which possibly was made easier because quite a large portion of their population did not survive that assassination.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

On the other hand. lizards are mainly carnivores.

That lizard thing again... and while there are a lot of insectivores among the smaller reptiles and prominent predators among the larger ones, there are also tortoises and sea turtles, iguanas and Galapagos sea dragons which are strictly herbivorous.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Perhaps they feed the crop to small furry animalsand then eat the SFAs like the newts are pet snakes? If I had to signal a major cultural difference, it would be that the Dragon's Eye lacks canals and a lake, which was Tenochtitlan's major transportation. I recall an illustration of a tricycle cart in the shape of a dragonewt rune. I suspect such would only be used for rituals, as it would be horribly unstable and terrible for carting loads. I can't see the dragonewts not performing agriculture, as it is common to all settled cultures and even a number of nomadic ones. Even obligate carnivores benefit from controlling a plant based food source that can then be fed to meat animals.

Scouts are herbivorous gatherers, and provide for the omnivorous higher stages above warrior (mainly tailed priests, winged priests spend most of their existence in meditation which obviates such trivialities as intake of food).

There is no evidence of any pastoral or herding activity apart from keeping demibird steeds and exerting some control over the "wild" dinosaur herds. Those may be as "wild" as the reindeer in Scandinavia (meaning they all belong to herds that have registered owners, even when they appear solitary in the wild).

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

I would also draw your attention to the sacred utuma as a sort of positive seppuku ritual. Seppuku, also known as Hara Kiri (Hara being center or belly, kiri meaning to cut) was performed as a means of atonement for failure in Japan, and as a means of passing on to the next incarnation. Due to their martial training and the focus of the attention onto the center of gravity, just below the belly, that location was seen as the locus of the spirit, and cutting the belly was the means of liberating the spirit. Of course for dragonewts it might be a more positive process. On the other hand, performing full ritual dismemberment is not a one-dragonewt job, and no doubt would get performed in public a la the Aztecs, with richly adorned priests in full participation up to their scaly elbows in blood with their gorey utumas. I imagine that this will be done to cresties who are straying from the path before they slip into dinosaur mind, and as a means of purification by others. The issue then becomes, as the dismembered limbs of the dead dragonewts are cast down the steps of the pyramid, what becomes of them? The Aztecs used to eat them, as good sources of protein were scarce in that part of the world at the time. I imagine such rituals would surprise any outsiders as much as equivalent trollish cannibalistic behavior. Of course there is no mention of dragonewt cannibalism, but it seems like a good way to avoid letting your dead body get used for dragonewt skin armor, and more utilitarianthan wasteful cremation.

Even if this was true for Dragon's Eye (which I don't think it is), how would they do something similar in the lesser cities in such different locations like the city among the Quivin Peaks, in the Stinkwood, at the foot of the Indigo Mountains or opposite of Dunstop?

Eating the dead bodies of their utuma'ed or otherwise demised fellow newts might be a thing, although I find the concept of autophagy - the newly hatched newt devours what is left of its previous body - as irritatingly different. Something like this was hinted at in connection to those dragonewt armor stories.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Don't worry, we'll just realign your perceptions by splitting your brain and your tongue and everything will become clear. We aren't just doing this major invasive brain surgery for shits and giggles, honest.Theory on Dragonewt Weirdness (2)

Sign here, here, and this property release form.

Gouging out someone's eyes will alter that person's perceptions, too...

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Actually things weren't really an issue until the TGH started attacking the nests and smashing the eggs. Then shit got real. As to the re-purposing the defunct jolanti of the rockwoods into the wings of the trans-Genertela mega dragon... seems legit?

Those awakened jolanti of Aggar are the least of my doubts. How did they hope to make the Elder Giants of the Easter Rockwoods comply?

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

This does rather beg the question of whether humans who adopted the Dragonewt path reincarnated onto it.

From what I have read about the EWF mystics, utuma was a one time only option, preferably when you achieved True Dragonhood. At least that's how the most successful draconic mystic, Obduran the Flyer, did it.

Obduran was the first Wyrm's Mind Collective leader who was an Orlanthi, but there were quite a lot of draconic mystics who had been at their meditations and transformations before him. Obduran may have overtaken them, but I think only a minority of the most advanced draconic mystics participated in the Third Council, leaving someone comprably junior like Ingolf Dragonfriend to take that position with all its entanglements.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Similarly, can dinosaurs be re-assimilated back into the dragonewt path?

According to the Dragon Pass rules, Pteranodons are redeemed dinosaurs. Still not quite dragons, but way better than e.g. brontos or triceratopi (or however you form the plural).

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

We know the whole Orlanthi story about "A dragon is following you" was a precursor to Orlanth's fight with dragons, but ultimately led to his initiation into their magic.

Somehow it is important that the dragon follows unnoticed. Which may be a way to say that it is Orlanth's Other, the imperceptible part of one's self that one cannot acknowledge without mystical realisation, like Yelm's shadow. Or, in opposed pairs like Rufelza and Sheng Seleris or Arkat and Nysalor, which they can acknowledge only through masks even with mystical awareness.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

It is rare for cultural traffic to be one way, and it may be that the EWF was an important spiritual lesson for both parties.

An experiment gone wrong, so one eradicates the ant farm. "This is not how to proceed, even though that Obduran specimen performed brilliantly."

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

There is some evidence that the dragonewts were trying to teach other races their insights even during the First Council. It is very likely that Cragspider knows a lot about dragon magic, given that she controls the black dragon.

Cragspider may have a primeval understanding of the world beyond so irritating things like facts through her one-ness with Arachne Solara. The ancestors of the dragons may have met the Goddess Glorantha during Creation, and they may have come to an agreement for the goddess to serve as the nesting ground (for eggs that hatch as True Dragons, without that neotenic nonsense).

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

I see their behavior as deliberate, ritualized and obtuse rather than merely playful. I think the dragonewts have a spiritual-political agenda on Genertela that goes beyond running a creche.

Possibly two such agendas. The Kralori dragonewts elevate a human exarch to their functional equivalent of the Inhuman King (like currently Godunya). Their experiment with Immanent Mastery (the path also pursued by Isgangdrang aka Drang the Diamond Storm Dragon) backfired just like the one in Dragon pass did, in the person of Shang-Hsa May-his-Name-be-Cursed. Their correction of that mistake took longer than the 1042 assassination.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

This is where the egg laying of the Inhuman King came in (from memory). The Inhuman king (queen?) lays loads of eggs, and they trans-shipped them.

Sandy Petersen once said that in order for new Dragonewt eggs to be produced, individuals from all age stages need to participate, which puts a stopper on expansion of dragonet-less populations, and puts Godunya into a strange sexual position.

If this was the case, so what about the dragonet-less Kralori 'newts? No new eggs for them?

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

On the other hand, a bit like teenagers getting pregnant, the results weren't great. Many of the new nests began to develop odd ideas not in keeping with Dragons Eye orthodoxy. I am pretty sure there is another Dragon's Eye style "main base" in Ralios too?

Not to my knowledge, and the dinosaur-born nomadic nests of the Elder Wilds may also be more of a rumor than a fact - while dragonewts are repeatedly mentioned in the history of the Elder Wilds, none are mentioned for the now of the place, and they don't appear in the population listing, either.

The only dragonet apart from the Inhuman King of Dragon Pass that I know about is the ruler of Ryzel on the border to Ramalia.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

It often seems as if the rest of Genertela is constantly trying to copy Kralorela and failing miserably. Nysalor gets built to copy the Kralori Emperor. Fail. the EWF is formed and sort of mimics the relationship between dragonewts and humans in Kralorela. Dragonkill. Fail. On the other hand, we don't really know if there are dinosaurs in Kralorela. Just because they haven't been mentioned, doesn't mean they don't exist. On the other hand, with the alleged close harmony between Kralori humans and dragonewts there is a lot less apparent confusion. I have heard others on this forum express some doubts about the Kralori arrangement being a good fit though. Both Kralori and dragonewt societies seem to be pretty homeostatic. As to whether dragonewt participation in I Fought We Won was weakness, it is hard to say.

Interesting theory. But then equating Rashoran (the Godtime incarnation of Nysalor) with Metsyla is kind of obvious.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

I am more interested in whether the dragonewts participated in the Ritual of the Net and the creation of Time. Of all the species, the dragonewts seem least touched by Time and Entropy both.

Why would there have been dragonewts in Hell? A dragonewt whose body dies goes straight to the egg, and doesn't receive 400$ for passing the start field. No detour through Hell required. That would be Death,

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